Generated Transcript

[00:00:14] Craig Syverson
Welcome to Venture Cast 25. I’m Craig Syverson of Grunt Media.

[00:00:19] David Hornik
Guess that’s me.

[00:00:20] Craig Syverson
Yep.

[00:00:21] David Hornik
David Hornik August Capital Remote. We are.

[00:00:25] Craig Syverson
We’re on the road again. Two in a row first time.

[00:00:28] David Hornik
Oh, is that right?

[00:00:28] Craig Syverson
Yeah, because last time was the dodgeball.

[00:00:31] David Hornik
People love that dodgeball.

[00:00:32] Craig Syverson
I gotta say, I got. I got messages from this guy Hunter Walk something. Said it was the best one ever.

[00:00:42] David Hornik
Hunter. Hunter. Shameless.

[00:00:44] Craig Syverson
Totally shameless.

[00:00:45] David Hornik
Hunter will promote himself, you know, all day and night.

[00:00:48] Craig Syverson
I have no idea what that’s like. I hate people like that.

[00:00:51] David Hornik
I do too. I think that’s despicable. I think, you know, you should rely on other people to promote you. So I’ve been meaning to say how fabulous you are.

[00:00:59] Craig Syverson
You’re looking really good today too, Dad, I gotta say. Here in the sunlight at the University Castle Cafe, downtown Palo Alto. Now you’ve convened this meeting here. Are you going to sucker some poor guy into being in our podcast? I think that’s your.

[00:01:12] David Hornik
I’m keeping my eye on the door. Well, you know, the advent of this is. I was chatting with a buddy of mine, Rajiv Matwani. Rajiv is a professor at Stanford. He’s a computer science professor. He also happened to be Larry and Sergey’s thesis advisor and also the advisor to a number of would be entrepreneurs, which led to him being an angel investor in a bunch of companies. And now if you’re a young, technology focused, smart entrepreneur, you try and find your way to Rajiv.

[00:01:42] Craig Syverson
Yes.

[00:01:43] David Hornik
And if you do find your way to Rajiv, you’ll almost assuredly find your way here to the University Cafe because this is his haunt.

[00:01:50] Craig Syverson
Okay.

[00:01:50] David Hornik
And so he was. I was chatting with him and talking about someone else. I can’t recall. And how did you meet? So and so. And, oh, well, you know, he said something like, there’s this, there’s a certain culture down at the University Cafe. And he was there and I was there. And so, you know, they, they connected at University Cafe.

[00:02:07] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:02:08] David Hornik
So that got me thinking. Then it turned out that after our podcast today, I already had a meeting on my schedule for a University Cafe.

[00:02:14] Craig Syverson
And that made me think, something’s happening.

[00:02:16] David Hornik
You know what?

[00:02:16] Craig Syverson
You’re detecting a trend. You’re a trend spotter.

[00:02:19] David Hornik
I am. That’s what we do here in the venture business. You know, Craig’s back from his fabulous Ireland trip.

[00:02:26] Craig Syverson
Fabulous.

[00:02:26] David Hornik
And we should gather reconvene here at the noisy University Cafe so we can feel the vibe of Silicon Valley coming to life.

[00:02:35] Craig Syverson
Coming to life. And it was moments before you came here. Some guys behind me were making a deal. They’re not here now. They were talking like XML returns, words like that.

[00:02:46] David Hornik
And you didn’t say, hey, I got a VC coming right in here. Why don’t you pitch us?

[00:02:52] Craig Syverson
Yeah, pitch us. I’ll give you. Give me 10% if you get the deal. I didn’t do it. I’m not an opportunist that way.

[00:02:57] David Hornik
Well, you know, I was just. I did come in. You already had your coffee. I went up front to. To get. To get my Diet Coke, and there was a guy in front of me, and he was buying himself a muffin, and he gave them his credit card and, you know, went through the whole process.

[00:03:12] Craig Syverson
For a muffin?

[00:03:13] David Hornik
Yeah. Well, you know, I think he had an iced tea as well.

[00:03:16] Craig Syverson
Okay.

[00:03:16] David Hornik
But then he changed his mind. He said, oh, that cake looks good. So he said, can I have the cake instead of the muffin? They get him the cake. Turns out the cake was $2 more than the muffin.

[00:03:25] Craig Syverson
Yeah, cakes are that way.

[00:03:27] David Hornik
So they say, you know, should we just void this out or do you want to give us the $2? And he said, oh, I don’t have the $2. All I have is that charge or whatever. There’s a lot of hamming and hawing.

[00:03:37] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:03:38] David Hornik
And I was all set to just say, here’s two bucks. You know, don’t worry about it. But they decided I forget it. Close enough. And they gave him the cake for $2 off, which was nice. And he turns around and. And says, hey, you’re David Hornik. You know, I saw your talk. Whatever. He said, I’m a former Google guy and now I’m an angel investor. I’ve been meaning to connect with you. You know, he doesn’t have two bucks, but he can, you know, throw a couple hundred thousand bucks into a technology company. Under the right circumstances, I can’t buy.

[00:04:08] Craig Syverson
The muffin, but could I buy this coffee shop? It’s really nice. It’s good business.

[00:04:12] David Hornik
There you go. That’s the University Cafe experience.

[00:04:14] Craig Syverson
Yep, exactly. So who knows? We might see a real angel here today. Looking an apparition.

[00:04:20] David Hornik
Looking around. We’re gonna spot them this table next to us. Yeah, that’s not it.

[00:04:24] Craig Syverson
That’s not okay. Visiting from.

[00:04:27] David Hornik
I’m just saying, I know there’s a certain look.

[00:04:29] Craig Syverson
Well, you have, you know, you have that skill. That’s why you’re a professional.

[00:04:32] David Hornik
It’s entrepreneur, Dar. Entrepreneur.

[00:04:36] Craig Syverson
Cash dar.

[00:04:37] David Hornik
That’s awesome.

[00:04:39] Craig Syverson
Well, I know we’re here to talk about angel investing, but I Got some bad news. You know, the whole venture thing, it’s just not sexy anymore. I think I’m going to leave you, David, to do a hedge fund podcast.

[00:04:52] David Hornik
Oh, man.

[00:04:53] Craig Syverson
No, no, no. Private equity podcast. That’s what I’m doing.

[00:04:55] David Hornik
Hedge cast.

[00:04:56] Craig Syverson
Hedge cast.

[00:04:56] David Hornik
Private equity cast.

[00:04:57] Craig Syverson
Yeah. So you know it’s just venture, so.

[00:05:01] David Hornik
Pe. Ca. Yeah, sure, sure. When was the last time August Capital had a multi billion dollar ipo, I’ll admit.

[00:05:12] Craig Syverson
Of your very own.

[00:05:13] David Hornik
Is that your measure?

[00:05:15] Craig Syverson
That’s it. That’s all.

[00:05:15] David Hornik
It’s all fair weather for you.

[00:05:17] Craig Syverson
I’m sorry, I’m sorry, but this might change things. Is that Blackstone did offer to buy venture cast for 1.7 billion, so that’s awesome.

[00:05:26] David Hornik
So, you know, I can’t believe it.

[00:05:28] Craig Syverson
So you’ll have to change professions.

[00:05:29] David Hornik
They’re going to do that with the interest from yesterday’s giant load of cash.

[00:05:34] Craig Syverson
Yeah, exactly.

[00:05:36] David Hornik
So Craig is distracted at the moment. He’s looking at this brand new iPhone.

[00:05:41] Craig Syverson
Not distracted, Sir.

[00:05:44] David Hornik
Show number 20. Oh, look at you. He’s got notes on his iPhone.

[00:05:49] Craig Syverson
Yes, I do.

[00:05:50] David Hornik
That’s impressive. I gotta tell you. How long did it take you to pull together those notes in a format that could be viewable on the iPhone?

[00:05:56] Craig Syverson
Merely seconds. Thank you for asking. Because it’s all about the Iweb.

[00:06:01] David Hornik
Is that right?

[00:06:02] Craig Syverson
So I threw together an Iweb thing half hour ago and said, I BETCHA it’s about 480Y. So I just, just started grabbing links that I was looking at last night in preparation for the show. Cut and paste, slam it in sync to Mac.

[00:06:14] David Hornik
I know you are.

[00:06:15] Craig Syverson
It’s just. It’s all there. It’s all right here, baby. This is it.

[00:06:18] David Hornik
You know what you are?

[00:06:19] Craig Syverson
What?

[00:06:20] David Hornik
You’re an eyeshill.

[00:06:21] Craig Syverson
I’m not an eye shill. See, that’s just it. You use the stuff, it works. And then people call you, you know, like a shill or a fanboy or something. You know what?

[00:06:30] David Hornik
You know, it’s.

[00:06:31] Craig Syverson
I am. But that’s not the point. The point is it. I use it because it frickin works.

[00:06:35] David Hornik
That’s. In fact, someone said that, oh, you buy anything that had an Apple logo on it, and the answer is yes. But it has nothing to do with the logo. It has to do with the fact. So this is now a little bit of intellectual property lesson for you, all right? This is the entire origin of trademark. This is it. If ever there was an explanation of trademark, the whole point of trademark is an indicator of source. Why? Because if you see a particular trademark and you. It suggests a source, then you can make certain assumptions about quality.

[00:07:07] Craig Syverson
Right.

[00:07:09] David Hornik
So, duh, if I see an apple on it, I assume it rocks my world.

[00:07:14] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:07:15] David Hornik
That’s all I’m saying.

[00:07:16] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:07:16] David Hornik
Yeah. You know what I’m saying?

[00:07:17] Craig Syverson
I know what you’re saying about that. And you know, and to that point, sort of indirectly and not very interestingly, I don’t wear an Apple cap or an Apple T shirt or I don’t have an apple coffee mug with the Apple logo on it. Because that, to me, to your point, that’s not. I mean, yes, it’s the trademark, but it’s not representing that source. Ness. That’s just weird fanboyness or weird. You know, that’s like, not. I’m not gonna go. I don’t even put the stickers on. That’s not it.

[00:07:44] David Hornik
You’re not. You’re not part of a cult. You’re just a consumer of excellent products. Craig.

[00:07:50] Craig Syverson
That’s right. I mean, just that the fact that I burn incense in front of, you know, certain symbols at night, and it doesn’t mean anything has to do with freshening the air.

[00:08:01] David Hornik
So I should say this. I’m gonna admit it. I’m gonna admit it. I had dinner out on Thursday night with a group of really smart entrepreneurs. These are the folks. This dinner was focused on distributed services. So companies that are creating software that allows you to leverage a set of distributed professionals that use that software to create better impact. Right. So the folks at the conference were oDesk, which is aggregating service providers, and LiveOps, doing software to do distributed call centers. Bella Photography. That is a software to aggregate up photographers. What else? Axiom Legal. I’m a huge fan of Axiom Legal. They have independent contractor lawyers from really good law firms that want more control over their lives. They aggregate demand and then source it so you get a better lawyer for cheaper, with good support. So. So anyway, this group, this group of folks all convened, we had a lovely dinner. And then after dinner, I was supposed to go up to the city to the StumbleUpon party.

[00:09:06] Craig Syverson
Another one.

[00:09:07] David Hornik
Another Stumble upon party. This one party animal, I think was, you know, celebrating the sale of their company or something.

[00:09:12] Craig Syverson
Oh, some trip.

[00:09:13] David Hornik
Something like that.

[00:09:13] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:09:14] David Hornik
But I was down here. It was up in the. The city. And instead, you know what I did?

[00:09:18] Craig Syverson
You stood in line.

[00:09:19] David Hornik
I went over. I didn’t stand in line, but I did drive by. I gave a drive by on Thursday. The Apple Store Thursday night.

[00:09:25] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:09:25] David Hornik
See, what was going on at, like, you know, this was 11, 11:30.

[00:09:28] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:09:29] David Hornik
And of course, as I was driving by, I happened to see a bunch of my friends who are losers, you know, giant geeks standing in line. They tell me to park.

[00:09:38] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:09:38] David Hornik
I park the car, I go to chat, you know, now I’m not, I’m not making the direct connection here, but I did I spot Steve Gilmore. I’m not saying he’s a loser. That was an unfair characterization. Don’t you think, Craig?

[00:09:48] Craig Syverson
I think so.

[00:09:50] David Hornik
Steve Gilmore, Robert Scoble and his son were well advertised as their Don McCaskill and his entire team from SmugMug. They were standing in line. They were going to buy iPhones for the whole entire crowd in their company.

[00:10:05] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:10:05] David Hornik
Which you know, just a bonus. You don’t just have to be an apple to get the iPhone free. So anyway, I went there I was chatting with them and etc. Etc. The next day I dropped off some donuts because I’m a nice guy. They’d slept over and I had gone home and slept in my bed. Drop off some donuts. It turns out they had more food than they could possibly deal with. So it’s like, oh, look, David Krispy Kreme.

[00:10:27] Craig Syverson
Thank you.

[00:10:28] David Hornik
Yay.

[00:10:29] Craig Syverson
Hey.

[00:10:29] David Hornik
But they were warm. My, my were warm.

[00:10:32] Craig Syverson
Well, you just got there.

[00:10:33] David Hornik
Right? That’s what I’m saying. I went, picked them up and dropped them off.

[00:10:35] Craig Syverson
Okay.

[00:10:35] David Hornik
So they ate and then I went to work because I have that thing.

[00:10:38] Craig Syverson
Of work, the job. You have a job? Yeah.

[00:10:40] David Hornik
And then I went. This is a long story.

[00:10:42] Craig Syverson
That’s good. I’m just.

[00:10:44] David Hornik
This Friday, what they called it iPhone day.

[00:10:47] Craig Syverson
Yep.

[00:10:47] David Hornik
Officially iPhone day Friday. And I went to lunch at a restaurant near my office and I was meeting with a executive from one of my companies. We’re chatting and then this guy, a friend of mine, walks by who is an investor in PodTech.

[00:11:02] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:11:02] David Hornik
And so I say, hey, you know, how’s it going? You know, good to see you. I saw Scoble and your pod tech guys. They were all hanging out and someone said that they couldn’t believe that anyone’s boss would let them take two work days to hang out in line.

[00:11:15] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:11:16] David Hornik
But that, that was in my mind completely insane because this was incredible publicity for.

[00:11:21] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:11:21] David Hornik
You know, for Scoble and PodTech. Because Scoble was interviewed by everybody who went by. It was like ridiculous areas was designed is Goble and his son.

[00:11:29] Craig Syverson
Yeah. Oh, I know, it’s unbelievable. Yeah.

[00:11:31] David Hornik
And so I said, you know this guy Paul Matucci who’s at usvp said so I think it’s genius, whatever. I’m having this loud conversation and I’m going to go back over and this and that. IPhone, iPhone, iPhone. And then Matucci goes off and the guy I’m eating lunch with kind of said, points to the side like, you know, over there, over there. And I said, what are you talking about? Gave him this look like, what are you talking about? And I look and it’s Steve Jobs who’s sitting at the sushi bar with his back to me. Oh yeah, that is Steve Jobs. I’m sure he wasn’t upset that I was having this long animated conversation about the genius of the iPhone, etc. Etc. So it was Steve Jobs and Scott Forstall whose new title, as far as I can tell, is vice president of iPhone software. So he’s like, you know, he doesn’t.

[00:12:16] Craig Syverson
Have much to do right now.

[00:12:17] David Hornik
Vice president of iPhone software. So he was there and someone else and they were, you know, it was a pretty low key lunch in anticipation of like, you know, I. Hoopla.

[00:12:28] Craig Syverson
Yes, exactly.

[00:12:29] David Hornik
Anyway, but I see that you have an iPhone and yet you were out of town, weren’t you?

[00:12:32] Craig Syverson
I was out of town. And I’d just like to point out to our audience on cue, when we were talking about the iPhone, the GSM noise that happens in recording came about. So those of you in the audience, you’re hearing the buzzing sound, which normally we can avoid when we record in David’s office, But we’ve got two live iPhones next to our recording, so. So. And hundreds of cell phones in this room right now.

[00:12:51] David Hornik
I put in my pocket.

[00:12:51] Craig Syverson
No, no, no, no. But I think it makes it look cool.

[00:12:54] David Hornik
It looks like, you know, look at us, we have iPhones.

[00:12:56] Craig Syverson
Yes. So that’s the noise you’re hearing. I’m not going to take it out there, actually, I can’t take it out. But no. On the 29th, I was in the dead center of Ireland on a very large horse in a field and there were a bunch of cows following me. And I thought, I wonder what it’s like to cut cows. Cutting is herding and isolating one. I didn’t know about this horse. I’d only known it for a week since we were out there. And I just did my whole. My American gene kicked in and I started rustling up cattle. It was fun. That was it. That was the, that was the.

[00:13:30] David Hornik
You were about to give me this like the tale of. And then I fell off because actually, what the hell do I know about riding a Horse.

[00:13:35] Craig Syverson
No, the horse. No. I know about riding horses. But the horse was. Actually. Had done it before.

[00:13:40] David Hornik
Ah.

[00:13:41] Craig Syverson
I learned later. Or I learned right away, because he was like, totally on it.

[00:13:44] David Hornik
It was like, okay, let’s round up the cattle.

[00:13:46] Craig Syverson
And there are some brave cows who came.

[00:13:48] David Hornik
Don’t you think? If you’re the cow owners, they weren’t there. What the hell?

[00:13:53] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:13:53] David Hornik
American horse and, like, circles my cattle, took them up to the hills.

[00:13:59] Craig Syverson
I know. It was.

[00:14:00] David Hornik
It was your own personal Brokeback Mountain moment.

[00:14:02] Craig Syverson
Ah, well. But yeah, it was. There was absolutely no mention of the iPhone in rural Ireland last Friday. No one talked about it. That was it. That was my experience. Yeah. And when I got back.

[00:14:16] David Hornik
Yes.

[00:14:16] Craig Syverson
Well, my wife called her sister on Friday while we were going up to the. Some old ruin somewhere. She called her up and said, hey, pick me up an iPhone. I just could have said at that moment, two. But I didn’t because I thought, oh, my friends back home, they’re gonna have plenty. So I let it go. And so we get home and FedEx is there. My wife has her phone. I don’t now it’s Sunday. I’m bumming hard. I’m looking around. None of them are around. Everyone sold out. So it wasn’t until yesterday afternoon that Palo Alto happened to have gotten 30 more. I happened to call, and I raced over there and picked it up.

[00:14:52] David Hornik
I was just checking. I just flipped over your phone, and I think it may be rude. It may be.

[00:14:56] Craig Syverson
Do you like looking under?

[00:14:57] David Hornik
I was checking to see if it was the four gig or the eight gig.

[00:15:00] Craig Syverson
Oh, I see.

[00:15:01] David Hornik
Because if it was a four gig, you probably could have picked one up. You know, they didn’t sell out as quickly.

[00:15:05] Craig Syverson
They didn’t sell it. But by the time I got here on Monday morning.

[00:15:08] David Hornik
Oh, yeah, no, by Monday morning, everything was gone.

[00:15:11] Craig Syverson
I did have an offer. At one moment, the Apple store guy said, someone just returned a four. And I said, no. And as I was driving home, I said, that’s dumb, because I should just get it because I’m gonna get the next one, so.

[00:15:24] David Hornik
All right, I see what you’re saying. But I can tell you that by the time I synced up all my music, it’s full.

[00:15:31] Craig Syverson
Well, likewise for. With me and my podcast.

[00:15:33] David Hornik
Have to start making choices.

[00:15:35] Craig Syverson
Making choices.

[00:15:37] David Hornik
Anyway. Well, let’s talk about things not that, you know. Don’t you think that everyone’s heard just about enough of this iPhone business?

[00:15:43] Craig Syverson
I think so.

[00:15:43] David Hornik
IPhone shenanigans.

[00:15:45] Craig Syverson
Let me look at my iPhone here to see what that Guy, not an entrepreneur.

[00:15:49] David Hornik
Okay, keep looking.

[00:15:52] Craig Syverson
So private equities ruining venture capital.

[00:15:55] David Hornik
Well, no. What. It’s ruin. It’s.

[00:15:57] Craig Syverson
Yeah, what’s the what? The tax thing. Right.

[00:15:59] David Hornik
Well, you know, look, I don’t want.

[00:16:01] Craig Syverson
To get into carried interest. Talking about carried. Now, come on, you’re the professor. No, we’re gonna teach. Look, okay, you carried interest. That’s your. That’s. That’s where you guys.

[00:16:09] David Hornik
I understand, but, you know, does anyone really want to know about the economics of my business? I mean, you know, isn’t it rude to talk about money?

[00:16:18] Craig Syverson
Isn’t that rude in a social situation?

[00:16:23] David Hornik
All right, so I’ll just give very quickly. I mean, the point is that the money that private equity and venture capitalists make in gain on the money that they invested has historically been treated as capital gains.

[00:16:38] Craig Syverson
Yes.

[00:16:38] David Hornik
And as such, is taxed as capital gains, which is 20%, whatever.

[00:16:43] Craig Syverson
28.

[00:16:44] David Hornik
And I think that’s, you know, that’s been okay, but when Blackstone went public and there’s a whole bunch of hoopla and people are seeing what kinds of dollars are being made by these folks in carried interest, it’s hard for Congress to not say, hey, wait a second.

[00:17:00] Craig Syverson
It’s really like, that’s a whole lot.

[00:17:02] David Hornik
Of money, and we’re losing a whole bunch of money in tax revenue, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:17:05] Craig Syverson
It should be regular income, should be viewed as income.

[00:17:08] David Hornik
It shouldn’t be viewed as capital gains. Now, the fact that money was put at risk, et cetera, et cetera, doesn’t seem to come into that particular calculus. And the bottom line is, I mean, the big argument is, gee, particularly in the venture business, if the fuel of the kind of technical economy is coming from venture capital and venture capital is investing this money, we want to encourage venture capital investing. And part of that encouraging is that if there is gain on our equity, that it should be treated as capital gains, not as standard income. I happen to think that’s correct. The other thing is that there are ways to simply take these entities offshore, and therefore, the money, what tax revenue you have now will become zero tax revenue as they go offshore.

[00:17:52] Craig Syverson
And it’s not too complicated to do that.

[00:17:54] David Hornik
And it’s not. No, it’s simple. And so I think, you know, the problem is that in order to solve a perceived problem, the government may create smaller tax value from. From these gains than they had from allowing it to be capital gains, which I think, you know, the venture industry and the private equity industry have viewed as a. As a rational compromise. So we’ll see.

[00:18:15] Craig Syverson
But wait a minute. Isn’t this income from. Oh, isn’t this income from the. Not from the management fees, not management fees.

[00:18:23] David Hornik
So I invest in a company and the company becomes increasingly valuable and ultimately becomes liquid. And then I sell the stock. So I get some percentage of the aggregate gains in the stock value and then I get that in stock or cash, but the stock is ultimately sold. So it’s capital gains on that stock. But my percentage of that gain is called the carrier, the carried interest. And that’s being taxed as.

[00:18:49] Craig Syverson
So management fees are straight up income, no questions asked.

[00:18:52] David Hornik
Management fee is. Is income. It’s treated as income. And I am taxed on it as income.

[00:18:57] Craig Syverson
Yes. So I thought.

[00:18:59] David Hornik
Except for breakfasts.

[00:19:01] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:19:01] David Hornik
Those are business breakfasts. And I. They’re viewed as a business expense.

[00:19:05] Craig Syverson
Yeah. As is your iPhone.

[00:19:07] David Hornik
As is the iPhone. How do you. Maybe it’s a consumer device.

[00:19:12] Craig Syverson
Maybe.

[00:19:13] David Hornik
But. But then let’s see. What email have I gotten? See if it’s a business device. So. Yeah.

[00:19:20] Craig Syverson
So you know this just in. KKR offers competing bid for VentureCast.

[00:19:24] David Hornik
Oh, man. Yeah. They’re going public.

[00:19:26] Craig Syverson
Yeah. So they’re.

[00:19:27] David Hornik
They’re going out themselves.

[00:19:29] Craig Syverson
They’re offering us 1.8.

[00:19:31] David Hornik
Excellent.

[00:19:32] Craig Syverson
Yeah. Anyway, somebody wrote a posting on PE Hub. Private equity Hub.

[00:19:38] David Hornik
Yes.

[00:19:39] Craig Syverson
And I thought I would read it because I thought it was really interesting and I think you’re going to agree with it. All right, that’s my guess.

[00:19:44] David Hornik
Better listen up.

[00:19:45] Craig Syverson
It was attributed to that guy. Yeah. Not a venture entrepreneur, but we’ll keep looking. The skateboard gave it away.

[00:19:51] David Hornik
That’s not it. Okay. Sorry.

[00:19:53] Craig Syverson
Attributed to a gentleman named David. Now I see the type’s kind of small. Oh, wait, I’ll zoom in. Cray C R A I S wrote, the PE and hedge fund guys have sucked the life out of venture capital. Between the Republican blowhards constantly deriding the 90s as the phony dot com boom, even though you still had a net gain in the Dow over 50% even after the crash and the M and A for ma’s sake, PE guys attracting the institutional and H and W cash, it leaves little room and less cash on the table for venture capital development. Look around. Do we see the new industries and companies being developed? No. Do we see new product development? With the exception of the iPhone or the Wii, no. Pes and hedges aren’t creating innovation or growing the economy. The VC Sandhill Road model is what created the information and knowledge economies that many around the globe are now copying. The PE and hedge guys are just shifting paper around, not creating value. And now the tax policy changes are just going to create more problems. The dow is over 13,000. But the dynamism that the VCs and startups bring to the economy is over for now. Hopefully the VCs will suffer with the PE and hedge funds. The good will suffer for the bad. Dun dun, dun dun. I mean, that’s a strong. I know you wouldn’t say.

[00:21:09] David Hornik
Yeah, no, I don’t. I mean, look, do I think scarcity of money?

[00:21:13] Craig Syverson
That’s kind of one of his points.

[00:21:14] David Hornik
There’s no scarcity.

[00:21:15] Craig Syverson
Right.

[00:21:16] David Hornik
Here’s the thing. He’s totally wrong about, you know, it making less money available for venture. There’s so much money available for venture. And the reason is that venture returns are good. And there are lots of institutions that have a strategy where they’re trying to get money invested in quote, unquote, alternative investments. And alternatives are private equity, but they’re also venture capital. And so I’m not worried about, for the venture capital industry. I’m truly not worried about whether there’ll be sufficient capital to support the industry. There’s just a huge, huge amount of capital available. So the venture business isn’t going out of business anytime soon.

[00:21:55] Craig Syverson
Right.

[00:21:55] David Hornik
So this question of what’s more productive, ultimately hedge funds or is it private equity or venture capital?

[00:22:04] Craig Syverson
It’s all an ecosystem.

[00:22:05] David Hornik
Look, they’re very different. On the other hand, I do believe that venture capital is. It’s a highly productive way of putting capital to work in an economy that grows the economy.

[00:22:17] Craig Syverson
Right.

[00:22:18] David Hornik
And I sort of agree with the discussion of quote, unquote, bubble 1.0. I mean, there were huge, interesting, important companies that were built out of it. And we’d have no Yahoo, we’d have no Amazon, we’d have no ebay. And then there are a whole bunch of other companies that added to the value of the Ciscos and Intels and Nortels and whatever of this world, whether the prices were inflated, etc. You know, these things go through fluctuations. So I don’t, you know, I think I would rather be a vc. I think it’s more fun, it’s more productive in the purest sense of the word. We’re producing new industry. We’re more likely to be kind of the engine that grows innovation. And I think that that’s the interesting part of the tech economy. On the other hand, you know, look, we were part of the buyout of Seagate and it was important, it was valuable to Seagate to become a private entity to focus on next generation product strategy, to do it outside of the eyes of sort of the public markets, etc. And I think that was great for the company and made the company more vibrant and gave it a better outlook for future products and all that. So it’s not like private equity can’t be valuable. It’s not like hedge funds are sort of making money by churning things around, only there is a sort of productivity of the market. But if I had to choose what I wanted to do, which I got to do.

[00:23:40] Craig Syverson
Yeah, do what you’re doing.

[00:23:42] David Hornik
I’m doing the thing that I think is the most fun and most productive and the biggest driver of the tech economy.

[00:23:48] Craig Syverson
This brings up a question with the Seagate deal. Now, you guys were investors in Seagate? They went private.

[00:23:54] David Hornik
Yes.

[00:23:55] Craig Syverson
So what’s the mechanism by which you guys got paid from that?

[00:23:58] David Hornik
That we got paid.

[00:23:59] Craig Syverson
Did you get paid?

[00:24:00] David Hornik
Yeah. Well, so we were not investors in the company. What? We were part of the group that took it private, so we bought it from the investors.

[00:24:09] Craig Syverson
Oh, so it wasn’t a venture deal.

[00:24:11] David Hornik
It was, it was a private equity deal where a billion dollars in equity was spent to take the company private. So all of the existing shareholders were bought out. There was some debt put in the company. It was taken to a private entity and became its own own standing company that was no longer traded on the public markets. The company then was able to manage itself without Sarbanes, Oxley and a bunch of these specific requirements that allow people to manage to the street as opposed to managing to long term gain. And over a few years, they gained a lot of value and continued to perform well and the company was taken public again. And so then when the company was taken public, that was then our private shares became public company shares and that’s how we got liquidity.

[00:24:54] Craig Syverson
Got it. Okay. So for a while there you were, you were part owners of Seagate.

[00:24:58] David Hornik
Yeah, we had. Yeah, we had $130 million invested in private company stock which could have been worth nothing. It ended up being worth more than that. But could have been, could have gone to nothing, which is a pretty big bet.

[00:25:10] Craig Syverson
Did you say they spun off a company that was nothing but debt?

[00:25:14] David Hornik
Debt?

[00:25:15] Craig Syverson
Did you say that when Seagate was bought, you said there was a bunch of debt?

[00:25:18] David Hornik
No, no, no.

[00:25:18] Craig Syverson
I was trying to follow the bouncing ball.

[00:25:20] David Hornik
Oh, sorry. No. In order to buy the company, there was a billion dollars from investors. It was August Capital. TPG and Silver Lake were the three primary investors that collectively invested a billion dollars in cash and then Also raised a billion dollars in debt. So for the $2 billion in cash, we were able to buy out all of the holders of 10 debt and equity in public company.

[00:25:50] Craig Syverson
Okay, you bought out Seagate’s.

[00:25:51] David Hornik
Exactly. Then the private company was held by Silver Lake TPG August and a crew of some others. And then with billion dollars in debt on top of that, that you guys that was leveraged against the assets.

[00:26:04] Craig Syverson
Got it. Okay.

[00:26:06] David Hornik
That’s how it works.

[00:26:06] Craig Syverson
Thank you. Understood. Understood. All right.

[00:26:10] David Hornik
I’m disappointed that we haven’t been able to find honest to goodness entrepreneur in this crowd. I think it’s because it’s the 4th of July week.

[00:26:18] Craig Syverson
I think they were all here when we got here. You know, maybe it’s the.

[00:26:21] David Hornik
It’s bad timing. 3:20, 3:20 entrepreneurs are taking their nap.

[00:26:28] Craig Syverson
So pounce. You seen that? Kevin Rose new company. Another.

[00:26:34] David Hornik
Now is it a new company or is it part of.

[00:26:36] Craig Syverson
I think it’s a new company.

[00:26:37] David Hornik
It’s a whole new company.

[00:26:38] Craig Syverson
I think so.

[00:26:39] David Hornik
It’s not part of the gig or.

[00:26:41] Craig Syverson
I have a link right here.

[00:26:42] David Hornik
We can look it up.

[00:26:43] Craig Syverson
We’re looking it up now. Oh, and here comes the sound of.

[00:26:45] David Hornik
The GSM thinking, oh, you can hear that. I can hear that.

[00:26:48] Craig Syverson
No, you can’t. I have the headphones on. David does not.

[00:26:52] David Hornik
Well, so I’ve been getting some pounce requests. Not as many as Twitter requests, but honestly, you know, Twitter’s been around a lot longer, so. Yeah, you know, but they’re different. They’re not. It’s not. It was sort of touted as, oh, now you know. Kevin and crew come up with a Twitter killer ripoff or whatever. And they’re different, but there’s still. It’s still a messaging platform.

[00:27:18] Craig Syverson
Yeah, right. It’s taking me to TechCrunch.

[00:27:22] David Hornik
It’s thinking. This just in from TechCrunch.

[00:27:24] Craig Syverson
You know what? I didn’t sign up with the WI Fi here.

[00:27:27] David Hornik
Oh, you didn’t?

[00:27:27] Craig Syverson
I’m doing.

[00:27:28] David Hornik
Yeah, I’m being kind of edgy. You’re using the Edge. I actually have. I don’t know if I’ve ever managed to get the Internet Edge network to work.

[00:27:34] Craig Syverson
Oh yeah, I’ve had good luck. Hasn’t been so bad.

[00:27:36] David Hornik
Guess you got it.

[00:27:37] Craig Syverson
There’s the noise we’re hearing, you know.

[00:27:39] David Hornik
Anyway, he’s checking, he’s checking.

[00:27:42] Craig Syverson
He’s checking. Now it’s going back.

[00:27:43] David Hornik
Would you like to use my browser? Because I’m on the WI FI network.

[00:27:46] Craig Syverson
I can, I can, I can go to the WI FI network.

[00:27:47] David Hornik
I Could log in. It would. There happens to be here, I guess it’s not surprising here at University Cafe, where all the deals are done.

[00:27:54] Craig Syverson
Where all the deals are done.

[00:27:55] David Hornik
While you’re looking at that, here’s a little story, actually. Okay, I. I did come. Actually, this involves Rajiv as well. See, he does spend all his time here. I was coming here to meet with CFO of one of the companies in which I’d invested. We were sitting around having a little chat. Rajeev wandered in, he said, hey. I said, hey. And he said, oh, I’m meeting with some guys that you might like to meet. So if you get done in time, I’m still here. Come over and say hi. Finished my meeting. We talked about CFO things, I think, like numbers and dollars. Yeah, like that.

[00:28:27] Craig Syverson
That’s what you guys talked about.

[00:28:29] David Hornik
And then I went over. I would. Went over to say hi to Rajeev, and he was sitting with this guy, Paul Ryan. Paul Ryan was the CTO of Overture immediately before this. And I guess actually he had spent a few days at Microsoft, but before that he had been CTO at Overture. And he was starting this new thing. It was sort of this aggregating demand for local businesses, etc. And so I started chatting with him about his business and liked him and liked his team of entrepreneurs. And that was just before Christmas, and people went off and did the Hanukkah thing and the Christmas thing. And I came back after the new year, spent some more time with him. Anyway, long story short, funded him.

[00:29:06] Craig Syverson
Oh.

[00:29:06] David Hornik
So. And that started right here at University Cafe. And so his company’s called Dunrite. And you can go to dunrite.com and they have this cool thing called the Done Right Directory and all. But, you know, it just happenstance, I happened to wander in and Rajeev introduced me to him. But good guys, I enjoyed the conversation. And so that’s what I’m looking for. I’m looking for, you know, another. Another Paul Ryan.

[00:29:28] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:29:29] David Hornik
Here in University Cafe today.

[00:29:31] Craig Syverson
Well, I’m looking for. I’m looking for my own Jay Adelson.

[00:29:34] David Hornik
All right.

[00:29:34] Craig Syverson
Yeah. Because I’m now Grunt Media, Inc. Oh, yeah. Yes.

[00:29:39] David Hornik
Is that right?

[00:29:39] Craig Syverson
I put in the papers.

[00:29:40] David Hornik
You personally have been incorporated.

[00:29:42] Craig Syverson
I have personally put in the papers.

[00:29:44] David Hornik
So now, did you incorporate in California or in. Or you went with California? I just went with California, not Delaware.

[00:29:51] Craig Syverson
Did not do Delaware.

[00:29:52] David Hornik
Why is that?

[00:29:53] Craig Syverson
Because I didn’t know any better. I didn’t call you up first.

[00:29:55] David Hornik
No, I’m just easier. It was easier to get it Done.

[00:29:59] Craig Syverson
It’s less complicated. See, I’m not a business guy. I need J. I need my J. All right, so. Actually. So, hey, if you’re a J out there, want to be a part of an exciting new media company, Grunt Media. Grunt Media. Get an angel too.

[00:30:12] David Hornik
Well, I still, you know, VentureCast is going to be part of the Grunt Media empire. Do I have to sign away my rights?

[00:30:16] Craig Syverson
No.

[00:30:17] David Hornik
Sign away my life. No, you see, you don’t.

[00:30:19] Craig Syverson
We don’t. This doesn’t quite fit the format. This is more of a hobby. This is my Apple tv.

[00:30:23] David Hornik
Is it just your hobby?

[00:30:24] Craig Syverson
I’m just toying with you, man. I know.

[00:30:28] David Hornik
I mean, if this was a video podcast, then we’d be matter. So you incorporated in California. You go to California and I. You got a C Corp or an S Corp?

[00:30:37] Craig Syverson
Yes, that was your advice.

[00:30:39] David Hornik
Good.

[00:30:39] Craig Syverson
I did, I did ask you about that.

[00:30:40] David Hornik
Right.

[00:30:41] Craig Syverson
So. Because I intend to. You know, we’re going to have lots of investment, right? We’re taking investment. We’re going to. We’re going to sell. We’re going to be huge.

[00:30:48] David Hornik
This guy just walked in the door, got a phone from Verizon. What is he thinking?

[00:30:53] Craig Syverson
We should go to ride him?

[00:30:54] David Hornik
Does Verizon even exist anymore?

[00:30:56] Craig Syverson
Thanks to him, they’re still in business.

[00:30:58] David Hornik
Yeah, right. Well, he’s like 90. Literally. I mean, guys, literally, like 90. He just bought. Must have bought one of those like giant phones with the pack that you carry over your shoulder.

[00:31:09] Craig Syverson
You’re being rude. That’s not nice.

[00:31:12] David Hornik
Anyway, so you incorporated?

[00:31:13] Craig Syverson
Yep. Yep. Grunt Media Inc. Grunt Media Inc. Yep. Cool.

[00:31:17] David Hornik
And now you’re gonna raise some money or are you?

[00:31:19] Craig Syverson
I’d like to. Yeah, that’s the plan. Raise some money, Get. Get some real business people in.

[00:31:22] David Hornik
What do you think? Go straight to Venture guys or.

[00:31:24] Craig Syverson
No, it’s not a big enough business for venture, in my opinion. We talked a little bit about it and I think it’s more of an angel thing, you know, it’s not. It’s content to begin with. Could be something else later. That’s probably what the good business guy will help me with. But definitely angel guys. Because, I mean, yeah, it’s an angel thing. It’s not big enough.

[00:31:40] David Hornik
Sort of like, you know, Calcanis and Denton? Those are content business. Aggregating a bunch. Going to do it on the video side, right?

[00:31:47] Craig Syverson
I’m not aggregating, though. It’ll be.

[00:31:49] David Hornik
No, no, you’re going to create original content, high quality content that rivals your little hobby here. Venture.

[00:31:56] Craig Syverson
Oh, yeah, this is. Yeah, this. This is suspense. This is audio. This is easy. But I’m learning. See, I’m learning a lot. I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t have known to. How the hell.

[00:32:06] David Hornik
All right. Calling all angel investors for Craig’s Real Business.

[00:32:12] Craig Syverson
That we should have had that on video. That look on your face.

[00:32:15] David Hornik
Yeah, right. If that had been a video.

[00:32:18] Craig Syverson
Look at that.

[00:32:19] David Hornik
Who’s that? Moon Ja.

[00:32:20] Craig Syverson
Mounjal Shah.

[00:32:21] David Hornik
What’s Moonjal up to?

[00:32:23] Craig Syverson
He was a guest on a previous show of ours, right?

[00:32:26] David Hornik
Yes, absolutely.

[00:32:27] Craig Syverson
The Web 2.0 attack show.

[00:32:29] David Hornik
Was he still Ria at the time or was he like actually at the very beginning. Did we go to that Web 2.0 conference? We saw him right when he was changing to like.

[00:32:38] Craig Syverson
Yep. That way. And we had them on. We had them on the show for a little bit. Now I know they actually have a little history. Hey, it’s. No, it’s. It’s a year when we decided to do it, but we started in September.

[00:32:49] David Hornik
We started sometime after the August annuals.

[00:32:51] Craig Syverson
Yeah, right. So you had to have your summer off. Like, you got to go to the kids, got to go to the kit.

[00:32:56] David Hornik
Got to rest up.

[00:32:58] Craig Syverson
Manchell was on the COVID of Wall Street Journal, page one. Here’s a story about.

[00:33:03] David Hornik
Just happened today.

[00:33:04] Craig Syverson
No, this. In the past week.

[00:33:05] David Hornik
I missed it.

[00:33:06] Craig Syverson
Yeah, I want.

[00:33:07] David Hornik
I. Look at that. See, this is what I want. First of all, the beauty of the iPhone. I can. I can close up on the woodcut.

[00:33:12] Craig Syverson
Yeah, nice. Nice wood cuts anymore.

[00:33:15] David Hornik
Is it just a computer that’s making woodcut?

[00:33:17] Craig Syverson
Like, I think they’re still. From what I heard, they’re still hand done because.

[00:33:21] David Hornik
Isn’t that awesome?

[00:33:22] Craig Syverson
It’s great. They’re beautiful.

[00:33:23] David Hornik
A friend of mine said his goal was to. Oh, no. I called him because he’d been in a woodcut. I may have mentioned this before.

[00:33:28] Craig Syverson
It’s not a woodcut.

[00:33:29] David Hornik
Whatever it is, you know, line.

[00:33:31] Craig Syverson
What are they called? I don’t know.

[00:33:32] David Hornik
Whatever it is, you know, they can. And ink thing that they do. Anyway. Yeah, he was in the Wall Street Journal and they’d done one of his face. And I said, that’s awesome. And he said, well, it’s good, but I’m really waiting to be on Fresh Air with Terry Gross.

[00:33:46] Craig Syverson
Yeah. Setting his sights.

[00:33:48] David Hornik
I have. I have similar aspirations, but I think it’s. I think that frankly, I got to wait until I write my novel. That’s going to be my ticket. That’s ticket right there to Terry Gross.

[00:33:57] Craig Syverson
It’s Terry Gross. That you’re after. You’re after Terry Gross. That’s your. That’s your thing.

[00:34:01] David Hornik
Wouldn’t you say how awesome that would be?

[00:34:03] Craig Syverson
No, no, not me.

[00:34:04] David Hornik
You don’t like the fresh air?

[00:34:06] Craig Syverson
It’s not my cup of tea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, mine is Terry Gross. Yeah, okay, wait, I got that. Mine’s a New Yorker, so what New Yorker? I want. I’ve met Malcolm Gladwell, had dinner with him once. But I love. That’s what I want.

[00:34:19] David Hornik
All right.

[00:34:20] Craig Syverson
I want the Malcolm Gladwell story. Yeah.

[00:34:22] David Hornik
I’m not objecting. I’m just.

[00:34:23] Craig Syverson
No, no, no. Yeah. We have our. We both have our dreams. So here’s a story about some in Silicon Valley begin to sour on India. So talk about outsourcing and the.

[00:34:33] David Hornik
Didn’t sell. Going forward and conquering.

[00:34:36] Craig Syverson
Yeah. And how salaries up there are creeping up to American levels now. So that’s what the. That’s what the story was about. So it wasn’t necessarily about Ria so much as about his involvement.

[00:34:46] David Hornik
It’s about Munjal. But, you know, get a little, like.com love in there. It’s always good. Yeah. Manjal is very good at the publicity. He appreciates the value of it.

[00:34:56] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:34:57] David Hornik
I was in the airport once, bumped into Munjal. I was with my family and I. And I screamed across the airport, munjal. Munj. They looking at me like, what are you doing? Because they didn’t know that Munjal was a name. They thought I was sort of like screaming a nonsense word. Then Moon Jal came over. I introduced him to my wife and all. They were somewhat relieved that. That I was not, in fact, insane.

[00:35:17] Craig Syverson
Having. Or having some sort brain aneurysm like you have been.

[00:35:21] David Hornik
Exactly.

[00:35:21] Craig Syverson
Anyway, yeah, we’re at a good time.

[00:35:23] David Hornik
That’s it.

[00:35:24] Craig Syverson
We’re at 37 minutes.

[00:35:25] David Hornik
All right.

[00:35:26] Craig Syverson
According to the clock. And we didn’t. We didn’t make. We didn’t cut a deal yet.

[00:35:28] David Hornik
Not a single.

[00:35:29] Craig Syverson
You didn’t find me my.

[00:35:30] David Hornik
Not a single conversation with an entrepreneur. Well, you know, but I. But I’ve enjoyed it. I like the ambiance. Don’t you think?

[00:35:37] Craig Syverson
It’s been nice. It’s been nice.

[00:35:39] David Hornik
Now, the next podcast. Here’s the question.

[00:35:40] Craig Syverson
Yes.

[00:35:41] David Hornik
Are we going to do it at the ticket crunch party? Are we going to do it in advance of the TechCrunch party?

[00:35:46] Craig Syverson
We should probably ask Mike.

[00:35:48] David Hornik
Well, we can do it.

[00:35:49] Craig Syverson
Your host. You’re sort of.

[00:35:50] David Hornik
You’re on my deck.

[00:35:51] Craig Syverson
It’s on your deck. I know, but it’s we could do it.

[00:35:54] David Hornik
We could do it before when all the sponsors are setting up. They’re going to be all these guys, demo stations and all.

[00:36:00] Craig Syverson
Oh, there’s. Oh, really? They’re gonna be like. They’re gonna do the mini Tech Crunch.

[00:36:02] David Hornik
Bunch of demo stations, so they’re gonna be so nervous. They’re kind of hanging out. We could go bug them before the crowds show up.

[00:36:08] Craig Syverson
That’ll be mean.

[00:36:10] David Hornik
No, we’ll just do a con. We’ll just chat.

[00:36:11] Craig Syverson
We’ll see. We’ll ask.

[00:36:12] David Hornik
I will stay tuned.

[00:36:13] Craig Syverson
We should ask Mike. Really. No, no. Well, come on. It’s his. It’s his party.

[00:36:18] David Hornik
Sure, it’s his party, but it’s on my.

[00:36:21] Craig Syverson
You’re being a landlord here.

[00:36:22] David Hornik
Last year. Yeah, Last year I was literally on at midnight on my hands and knees with seltzer water, cleaning up stains from the red wine.

[00:36:32] Craig Syverson
Oh, my God. It must have been.

[00:36:33] David Hornik
What?

[00:36:33] Craig Syverson
I’m saying, it must have been just terrible for you. Yeah, boy, Elephant tears for you, too.

[00:36:37] David Hornik
If I want a podcast from the Tech Crunch voice party, my friend, we will podcast. Do you understand? I got it.

[00:36:44] Craig Syverson
I got it. Whatever.

[00:36:45] David Hornik
Fine, we’ll ask Mike.

[00:36:46] Craig Syverson
Fine, fine. When is that?

[00:36:49] David Hornik
The 27th. July 27th.

[00:36:51] Craig Syverson
And you’re evening and you’re in the Cape until then?

[00:36:54] David Hornik
I’m not saying maybe.

[00:36:56] Craig Syverson
Okay, well, summer. So just for the audience, summer schedule will be. I know. Everyone’s on the edge of their seat waiting for the download. I know that happens. Just letting you know the summer is going to be a little erratic. We’re a week late this time.

[00:37:07] David Hornik
Right?

[00:37:07] Craig Syverson
We’re a week late this time.

[00:37:08] David Hornik
Oh, that’s going to be. Oh, week late. And then we’re going to be another. And then we’re going to be.

[00:37:11] Craig Syverson
It’s going to be sporadic.

[00:37:12] David Hornik
Another. It’s going to be three weeks again, isn’t it?

[00:37:14] Craig Syverson
Yeah. So Cal.

[00:37:15] David Hornik
Oh, Calcanis is going to.

[00:37:17] Craig Syverson
I know. He’ll just have to deal.

[00:37:18] David Hornik
Oh, man. Do you really. But see, the thing, Jason, like, we could do the Skype podcast thing. But that’s awful. Don’t you hate that?

[00:37:26] Craig Syverson
I hate.

[00:37:26] David Hornik
I hate the, like, using it as a recording device.

[00:37:29] Craig Syverson
It’s not right.

[00:37:29] David Hornik
It’s a fine quality for a phone conversation.

[00:37:32] Craig Syverson
When it works, it’s fabulous.

[00:37:33] David Hornik
But, yeah, we’re not doing that.

[00:37:34] Craig Syverson
No.

[00:37:36] David Hornik
So next one will be sometime and around July 27th.

[00:37:40] Craig Syverson
Yeah.

[00:37:41] David Hornik
And after that, you know, we’ll see.

[00:37:42] Craig Syverson
Yes.

[00:37:43] David Hornik
See you when it comes up.

[00:37:44] Craig Syverson
Thank you for listening.

[00:37:45] David Hornik
Bye. Bye. Now.

[00:37:49] Craig Syverson
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